Retreading old ground

[zelempa]

sara_merry99 posted an interesting question recently. We're all familiar with the tired old "why slash?" but she asked about the experience of women who, once they go over to slash, lose their interest in het to the point where it's icky. I totally identify with that experience (dude, het is so icky! hee hee!)

Still, it's difficult to answer without getting into "why slash?" and a lot of the commenters did go there, including me. I can't really focus on anything without creating a bulleted list, and as long as I'm thinking about it, here goes.

The Tired Old "Why Slash?": The Complete* List of Reasons M/M Slash Fans Say We Love M/M Slash
* Not complete.

Reasons to like same-sex pairings in fiction

• Het romance is played out. We see het romance everywhere! Movies, TV, mainstream culture... Been there, done that. Gay romance is new! It is interesting!
  

  Problem: You'd think we'd also get bored with slash after awhile, then, but I personally will read Sheppard and McKay's first time over and over and over.
  
  

• Het romance has an uncomfortable implied power imbalance (and/or gender roles). Two people of the same sex are equals. I feel this one. I had actually identified this as my problem with being with men, so it's not surprising I should find this to be a problem in fiction about women and men. And the het pairings/tension I find most appealing are the ones where there's an equal balance of power, e.g. Mulder and Scully.
  

  Problem: Many slash pairings have an implied power imbalance, and it's not like slash writers as a whole sweep that under the rug. If this were the main reason to like slash, we couldn't enjoy a story where Blair gets dominated by Jim and/or cries his little eyes out, is all I'm saying.
  
  

• Same-sex romance is forbidden and taboo and therefore sexy. Most of the fandoms I like, anyway, involve the military, the police force, or some other highly rigid male-dominated subculture in which homosexuality would be a real problem. In the fiction, we frequently explore not only the implications of dealing with the outside pressure, but with the fascinating psychological issues relating to the characters' own feelings about their sexual and gender identity and insider/outsider status.
  

  This is the first item on this list so far which explains why m/m might be more popular than f/f (as it's generally less socially accepted.) And this explains why het pairings with an insurmountable obstacle, such as the piemaker and the girl who was dead, sometimes seem to appeal in almost the same way that slash pairings do.
  

  Problem: It's just not the same, though, is it? And I am fully capable of enjoying established relationship fics and AUs in which DADT has been repealed! and there is no problem!, where the taboo nature of the relationship is not the central angst of the fic. Similarly, I have no particular interest in non-gay-related psychological issues relating to identity and insider/outsider status. (Except maybe being a Sentinel?)
  
  

• (For the gays) It's us! It's us!!! For once.
  

  Problem: I think most slash writers are heterosexual women in real life, no?
  
  

• It's about friendship! At least in fiction, men and women are sort of expected to instantly see each other as potential mates unless there's a good reason not to, whereas men and men (or women and women) are not. So there's time for respect and love to develop before, and independently of, physical attraction. This is more unusual and interesting than the boring old dating cycle, and it arguably allows for a stronger and more loving relationship down the line. This also explains why het pairings where the friendship comes first (I CANNOT THINK OF ANY HELP) are similarly exciting.
  

  Problem: I totally groove on this dynamic (and dude, not just in fiction), but again, het situations which should be just as satisfying for this reason are just not the same. I don't know why. Besides, I've been known to like stories where the main guys are just gay and totally into each other from day one, or where they have to have sex for some reason other than love (aliens made them do it?), or where they are not friends at all and in fact hate each other (Mulder! Krycek!)

Reasons to like same-sex pairings in fan fiction*
* Reasons to like fan fiction in the first place are another can of worms altogether.

• It's subverting the text! If you see sexual tension between characters of opposite sexes, chances are it was put there on purpose. If you see it between same-sex characters, it's either unintentional (and you're subverting the writers' intent) or it's sneaked by under the radar (and you and the writers are subverting the producers, PTB, etc.) There's a delightful sort of mischief in that. (This explains why I lost interest in Xena and Gabrielle when the tension, if not the relationship, became a textual running gag.)
  

  Problem: Doesn't account for relative lack of popularity (or at least my own lack of interest in) other subversive, taboo elements, e.g. incest (with the exception of Wincest which is GAY ANYWAY.) There's also a number of fans who write and read in canonically gay texts, like Queer as Folk, and my own experience is that I like canonically gay stories of adventure (Nightrunner books) the same way that I like slash fiction.

Reasons to like m/m pairings, specifically

• One man is sexy. Two men? Sexier! Why waste our time describing women, whom we have no sexual interest in, when we could describe two men, each of whom we have a separate but equal sexual interest in?
  

  Problem: Okay, so, see, there are a number of lesbians into slash. And tons of bisexuals. Women are also sexy, right? I mean, I think so! But I still don't want to write or read about them.
  
  

• Let's put manly men in the traditionally feminine role of being objectified! We are accustomed to seeing women objectified, seen through the male gaze or whatever. Well, here's a way of objectifying the guys! See how THEY like the male gaze.
  

  Problem: Would not the female gaze work just as well? (e.g. a het story from a woman's POV.)
  
  

• Let's put manly men in positions of vulnerability! In society and in fiction, men--specifically these men, the characters we're writing about--are in control. Putting them in the socially-taboo tradionally-feminine role of liking another man, makes them vulnerable! Interesting interactions with societal constructions of masculinity ahoy! This also explains why we beat them up, impregnate them, and make them into women.
  

  Problem: M/m romance is not essential to vulnerability, and it's not a simple matter of the more vulnerable (feminized?) the better. I personally prefer stories where the characters' "masculinity" (not that I buy into it and sensitive guys can be manly etc etc) is left more or less intact. Also, mpreg and genderbending are (a) common squicks, disliked by a number of fans and (b) like intense hurt, arguably often used mainly as a device to help along the gay romance.
  
  

• It's a form of escapism: m/m relationships and sex acts don't resemble our own (assuming we're women), and it's something we'll never experience. Why waste our valuable fiction-experiencing time reading about some guy fondling a girl's breasts when we could read about what it's like to be blown?
  

  Problem: Most slash writers are women, right? So we're not reading actual accounts of what it's like for a man to experience an m/m relationship or m/m sex; the writers themselves are necessarily describing it in terms of things they themselves have experienced (eg. women projecting their feelings dating men onto men dating men; their feelings being penetrated onto men being penetrated). Also, don't a lot of the actual acts we write and read about (going on dates, giving blowjobs, etc.) resemble things we could theoretically experience? Also, given the aforementioned lesbians, even being in a gay relationship isn't a foreign experience for the readers. Also, if it's just about escapism, wouldn't identifying with a man who's in love with a woman, or with woman who's just really different from you, work just as well?
  
  

• Women who have less than stellar associations with RL sex might prefer to get their rocks off by reading about sex in which they do not imagine themselves in the place of the participants. I don't know how to support this argument.
  

  Problem: First of all there's the obvious problem that, as far as I can tell, slash fandom is made up (at least in the proportions of women in the general population) of women who have totally fine sex lives. I mean, from what personal posts I read, most of the women on my flist are happily married. (And that's leaving aside the small but prettily petted contingent of male slashers.)
  

  Less obvious but equally worrying is the assumption that a woman reading about a female character will instantly identify with her and put herself in the character's place, and that she won't do this with a male character. For my part, I would venture that I'm more likely to identify with a male character (although that could be because I'm, you know, used to reading slash, where most stories are written with a very close POV on one man.)

Reasons to like m/m pairings in fan fiction, specifically

• Men are the more interesting characters in the texts that we slash. A line that I keep quoting although I don't remember where I heard is that slash is feminizing texts for and by men. It's true that some of the most productive fandoms begin with extremely male-oriented TV shows--sci-fi, action, cop shows, etc. In these texts, the women are either ignored or drawn badly, so if we want to explore the relationships here, it's men and men and men all the way.
  

  Problem: Why do we choose to go to the trouble to feminize masculine texts? Feminine texts do exist--or, at the very least, texts less aggressively masculine than SPACESHIPS EXPLOSIONS OMG! I mean, I like SPACESHIPS EXPLOSIONS OMG!, myself, in and of themselves, and I'm sure lots of other girls do, too. But it doesn't explain why we feminize spaceship texts preferentially, or exclusively.

Really, none of the explanations I've heard, surmised by people in or out of fandom, totally work for me. I mean, they all seem like side-benefits, varying from fan to fan, rather than any core, unifying reason. And yet, for all the infinite variation in slashfandom, there is a strange sort of unity. (Isn't there?) I guess when it comes down to it, it's just a sexual/emotional kink like any other, defying any real explanation.

Comments

[erda-3.livejournal.com]

I've tried to reason this after the fact, going back over things I've liked and trying to figure out why. I started reading fanfiction back in the days of Star Trek TOS and I was reading a lot of hurt/comfort. So at some point I ran into a sexually explicit story and I was like, huh, ok, that's where this was all going. I then started seeking out Kirk/Spock exclusively. Yes, Spock was under Kirk militarily, but he had power of his own and was Kirk's clear superior intellectually. If Spock had been a female character they would never have allowed him to know more than Kirk.

I sort of forgot all about that for several years until I started getting into SG1. I remember being extremely annoyed at the episode early on when they got infected with some virus or something that made Sam come onto Jack, but later, when they had time to build up a friendship/mutual respect/ UST thing I got into the pairing. However, when I tried to read the fanfiction it seriously weirded me out that Jack was Sam's CO.

The power thing is a big part of this to me. I happen to like fanfiction stories where one of the m/m pairing dominates the other; I can't stand this in het stories. When a man gives up power in a relationship it's sexual only to me. Men by an accident of birth have power out in the world, and no amount of sexual submission takes that power away from them.

I have trouble with stories where the woman dominates the man too, though less than I have with the man dominating the woman. See, I was raised in a world where powerful or dominant women are icky, and I'm a product of that society.

I know people slash characters who don't like each other in canon and characters who are basically evil, but those pairings just don't do it for me. I never liked romance novels that started off with the characters disliking each other either, though clearly many people do. I associate sexual attraction with liking someone, with building out of friendship and respect. That's hot to me personally.

The other night my daughter and I were watching some stupid TV show and in one scene a car pulls up to the curb, the back door opens, and these long sexy legs come out of the car. My daughter and I looked at each other and started snickering, "Oh, evil character." because let's face it, we are bombarded constantly with the idea that female sexuality means evil.

I also for some reason have problems with descriptions of women's sexuality in general. My daughter is always reading these magazines like Vogue and such that purport to explain men to women, and every time I look at these articles I'm like "Goddammit I must be a man or something." Men think about sex on average every every so and so seconds, well, hell, I think about sex all the time... Hahahaha. I guess I'm evil.

I actually liked Elizabeth/John, but there seemed to be so much more John/Rodney out there and it was so much better written that I got pulled into it even though my slash goggles are sucking. I didn't really feel any UST between John and Rodney before this season. And now that Carter and Rodney have actually worked together without acting stupid and Carter is in a position of power I'm ok with Sam/Rodney, whereas before this season I hated that pairing. I'm saving all my hate for Katie/Rodney. Katie is not as smart as Rodney, she is under him powerwise in every way and the pairing really icks me out. Oh, she's nice. Pardon me while I gag.

The attraction to me of science fiction and police shows is that they are as far from my real life as it is possible to be. I'm a pacifist, a gun control supporter, mild mannered and all that in the real world, so in fantasy I'd like to kick some ass, shoot people, be taken seriously, have power and respect, all the things I don't get as a woman. I'd also like to assert my sexuality without being an object of ridicule or disgust.

Sorry for rambling all over the place here. Complex issue, I haven't really worked it all out in my mind completely.

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

None of us have. And to some extent I think it is unproductive worrying about it, because it's not a nut we're going to crack. Still, it's an interesting topic to those of us whom... it... interests. (Hm. Tautologies ftw.)

And maybe I'm wrong and there isn't any unity. In the vast collection of one-woman's-squick-is-another-woman's-kink Venn diagram circles we call slash, maybe there is no central point of overlap.

The point about women's sexuality being evil in mainstream culture is interesting. Developing an aversion to women in my (at least fanfic) reading kind of makes me feel complicit in the stigmatization, but I can't help what I like!

My feelings about power dynamics are odd. I like equals, and I like relationships where they are not necessarily equals but where they are better than each other in different arenas (e.g. Rodney's smarter but John is stronger, etc.) I also like it when the presumed weaker partner dominates the stronger (Blair topping Jim, for example), so you'd think I'd like strong women with weak men. And I do, to the extent that I like het at all. But I require such a strong woman and such a weak man before I'll even go near it, that it's just easier to find stuff I like in slash. Besides, something which I like in slash is that the strength/weakness of the characters is NOT inherent in their gender; you have to get to know the characters as people before you figure out the dynamic.

I'll let you in on a secret: I didn't really see John/Rodney in the first few seasons of SGA either. I was into the fandom before I saw any real evidence of it on the show. That's why I like TS--the zomg eternal love is all right there on the surface; you don't have to go grasping at straws. With John and Rodney, I feel less that their relationship IS adorable, but that it would be if they had one.

[erda-3.livejournal.com]

"kind of makes me feel complicit in the stigmatization"

Ah, yes, therein lies the rub. I prefer to think of myself as being a victim of the evil patriarchy, and I feel I should get some credit for refusing to actively participate. Being aware of the damage the media and society does to our vision of ourselves doesn't really fix the problem, though it's a start. I don't know how to fix it. I liked cesperanza's idea that all the time we spend reading is time doing what we want and thereby taking away from time we could be spending taking care of other people's needs. Sounds like a good excuse to me.

I've witnessed people throwing themselves through all sorts of logistical hoops trying to justify why we write about men, and I'd like to believe there's a good excuse, but I find that what I want to believe hardly ever really changes reality. I do think that women tend to agonize over stuff where guys would just be like, whatever, I like it and that would be good enough. Women are always feeling that what they enjoy needs to be justified, needs to be a good thing or positive or whatever. I don't think most men have that feeling. I'm speaking of general gender differences here.

I'm pretty close to 100% with everything you've said. Yes, definitely Blair tops Jim. I've been a little disappointed in Season 3 so far; it seems to me like they stepped back a bit and have written some boring eps. The whole guide/sentinel thing is such a gold mine to me and the writers seem not just unwilling to explore it but completely oblivious to it most of the time.

Are you familiar with Starsky and Hutch? I have the season one dvd and I've just started watching it. I watched years ago when it was first on and I remember finding it extremely slashy then, so i have high hopes for it.

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

I've never seen Starsky & Hutch, but those guys are so 70s looking! I might need some time to adjust to that. A definite advantage to Blair and Jim is the ready-made hawt.

There are a LOT of boring useless TS eps, but wait'll you get to the end of season 3. O. M. G. SOULMATES. TS is essentially about five excellent episodes which make up for about 50 truly dull ones.

[yolsaffbridge.livejournal.com]

I do think that women tend to agonize over stuff where guys would just be like, whatever, I like it and that would be good enough. Women are always feeling that what they enjoy needs to be justified, needs to be a good thing or positive or whatever. I don't think most men have that feeling. I'm speaking of general gender differences here.

I don't normally voice opinions on the slash debate, but I had to respond to this because I don't buy that it's a gender thing. For instance, I don't normally voice opinions on slash because I don't care why I like it. I just couldn't really give a damn. You say this is primarily a male point of view, and maybe that's true, but the internet, and LJ specifically, is very much inundated with people who do care and who argue and who voice their opinions (why else have a LJ?). So at what point can you really say that women do this or women do that based on LJ posts/comments? Presumably, there are people like me, who do not post and do not comment on these topics because we don't find them interesting.

Conversely, there are many activities that men would feel the need to justify. My boyfriend, who is generally a ridiculously easy-going person who admits to various embarrassing things without hesitation, refuses to admit to people he just met that he plays D&D. Presumably, other activities (specifically ones that are traditionally associated with women) would also require justification.

I don't necessarily bring up these two examples to argue (I understand that you're speaking in generalities, and I'm bringing up specifics), but to point out that at least in the case of assuming that women, as a group, care about justifying their leisure activities, one may be working from a biased set of personal data/evidence. This is true specifically in this case, where the non-participating members of the community, who normally go ignored, would constitute the entire set of contradictory data.

[mab-browne.livejournal.com]

"I guess when it comes down to it, it's just a sexual/emotional kink like any other, defying any real explanation."

And I can run around in circles trying to figure it all out, but that explanation works as well as any in the end.

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

Yeah, exactly. I'm pretty sure this is why none of the other explanations seem to really work. However, it's still fun to compile a list of them, because I like lists. :)

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I found this really interesting to read, perhaps in part because I'm not really coming at it from a slash or a het perspective. I've really never been interested in romance as a genre, in original work or fanfic. It just doesn't really interest me as a thing in and of itself. When I enjoy a pairing, be it one that I really don't see in the source text (e.g. McKay/Sheppard) or one that is total canon (Wash/Zoe) it's purely specific to those characters and that pairing.

However, a lot of the reasons on your list actually ARE some of my reasons for writing about m/m or f/f relationships in my original fiction. For me, romance is only one of a number of different subsets of human experience to write about, but as a writer, I simply find a lot more to interest me in gay romance. It's not only wide-open territory that hasn't been explored all that much in fiction, especially genre fiction, but it also offers a ton of built-in obstacles and angst for the lovers.

My husband once asked me, when I had him beta-read a novella I'd written that was a spy story containing an m/m romance, why I didn't make it a man and a woman instead. And my answer, basically, was why should I? There are a million such stories out there. Take that aspect out, and it's just another James Bond story.

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

I'm glad some people are throwing nonessential same-sex romance into their adventure plots. It's a sorely underused device, in my opinion. If there's a B-story romance, it's het; if there's a gay romance, it's always the Big Problematic Thing that the Story is About. A reason I like slashing shows (which isn't up on the big board... yet) is that it creates TV shows (in our minds, anyway) in which there ARE gay relationships, but they aren't the POINT of the show--there's also, you know, adventure and fun stuff.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I'm absolutely with you on that; it's one reason why, given a choice between a variety of options for subplots, I like to offer some representation of people who don't get that very often. (Although sometimes the plot has other ideas. I was all happy about having a happily married-with-children lesbian couple in the graphic novel I'm writing right now -- lesbians of color, too! -- except that the plot is evolving in a direction which is putting them in imminent danger of being written out, unless I can find a new subplot for them.)

[sasha-feather.livejournal.com]

I've heard this point discussed as well: having gay people or other under-represented people in your story, without making that the *point* of the story, is a Good Thing. It normalizes, it makes minority groups a little more mundane, a little more accepted. SF/F is a good medium for this, too: one can write a story with gay people in a society where they are not stigmatized; or a story with POC who haven't been oppressed because of their color (ie Teyla, Ronon, Teal'c, here). Which is fun and refreshing to read about or view.

[sasha-feather.livejournal.com]

Ah, you've said it better than I did. I'm v. interested in this topic and will respond with more detail later. Also I may rec this post in my own journal.

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

I think a post of yours not too long ago got this ball rolling again in my head. :)

[coneyislandbaby]

Het romance is played out. We see het romance everywhere! Movies, TV, mainstream culture... Been there, done that. Gay romance is new! It is interesting!

I don't and never will agree with this. Why? Because for me, at least, it's not about het romance or gay romance, but about the characters. And I can't get het romance with most of my preferred characters anywhere but fanfic. So I will not ever buy that as valid. Not ever, in any way, shape or form. It's just not something that has ever made sense to me.

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

That's a good reason to read fanfic of all kinds: you want to see your favorite characters/relationships explored, the show doesn't (can't) do that completely. I think all of us are in it for that reason, to some extent.

(I was going to say "all of us are in it for that reason, primarily," but I think that would assume that a fan gets into a show first, then having grown attached to the characters, turns to fanfic for further exploration of them. That is certainly sometimes. But I like slash so much that I I will start watching new shows just because I know there is a lot of slash for them.)

I didn't include reasons to like fanfic in general on this list; there are so many, many, many. I know there are many people who don't care whether the pairings are gay or straight, as long as the characterization is good. For people who do have a strong preference for gay pairings over straight ones (like me), I interest myself in the question of why that might be.

My conclusion: it seems to be one of those things that resists logical reasoning. You can come up with reasons after the fact why slash (or het or gen or no-fanfic-at-all) is the best, but no amount of arguing either side is going to change your preference.

Don't take this the wrong way (anyone! please!), but the "It's not about het or slash, it's about the characters" argument weirdly reminds me of the probisexual argument, "It's not about gender, it's about the person." And, yes, the person (characterization) has to be good TOO, but having a preference for one gender or another should not be considered closed-minded or a personal failing. It is what it is.

Actually, I'm kind of glad I have a strong preference. Having almost no interest in het helps me to understand and accept people who have no interest in slash. Also, people who are straight. Also, people who are gay.

Wow, this comment has reaaaaaally strayed. Sorry, folks.

[re-weird.livejournal.com]

I'm here from metafandom.

For me, I'm not interested in het or slash so much as categories but whether I can see the individual pairings actually work in canon. For example, House/Wilson interests me a lot more than Draco/Harry. (Not that Draco/Harry is bad! It just doesn't work for me). That's why I can't always identify with slash fans of some fandoms-sometimes it just doesn't seem to be there and I have no idea what they're talking about. Of course I squee over slashy subtexts too, and read fanfic about that (Kensei from Heroes is totally gay for Hiro).

I don't if this helped you at all but it's at least one fen's thoughts on why she reads slash.

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

Certainly even within slash there are a million tiny examples of that-works-for-me, that-doesn't. (I don't get Harry/Draco either.) And we allll have to get along.

Metafandom? That explains the new comments! Hi, everyone! Sorry about the mess!

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

I don't think there can ever be One Reason, nor should there be.

Everyone likes things for different reasons, slash included. What I like about SGA may not be what you like about SGA...

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

Yeah. The more I think about it, the more I agree with you.

The motivations don't have to be the same for us to produce creative works which we mutually enjoy.

[loqia.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that I have anything interesting to add here other than lots of sagacious nodding in agreement. I think in the long run there's probably really no one solid factor about why people like what they like, in the way that there's no solid factor about why someone likes the colour green versus the colour purple. It just 'feels' right.

Don't mean that you can't theorise on it, of course (heaven forbid!); only that at the end of the day there's probably not one neat little box to pack up everyone's thoughts in.

Interestingly enough, I'm one of those almost exclusively slash readers, who moved into the genre after discovering Anne Rice at circa age 16 (prior to that it was all het for me, and the notion of a male/male pairing never entered into my head). The other year I went out and wrote a book and a bit, with a main character who was in a pre-established (functionally) same sex relationship. The really weird thing was that I found myself start to throw in a het subtext between him and the other leading female character. Originally as kind of a joke (because two leads of opposite genders who argue a lot are pretty much destined to wind up together according to the Trope Gods), but 300,000 words later I found myself actively supporting the pairing!It occurred to me that the dynamic that the male/female pairing shared was pretty much the one I like the most in slashfic, as opposed to the more staid relationship between the male protagonist and his partner.

I don't know whether that proves anything or not. I just found it... interesting. Definitely interesting. (Especially since I deliberately acknowledged then killed off the relationship in the third book, effectively jossing my own fanon. There's so much weird there that it hurts to think about it...)

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

I do sometimes like het pairings which are 'slashy' in some way--a man and woman who make fun of each other, who are partners in some endeavor (cop-style), who for some reason are forbidden from becoming close, who are platonic best friends--but not with the same intensity or desire to read and write fic.

It gets complicated when you're writing orig fic--it's hard not to think about the Statement You Are Making. I think it's because in orig fic, you are creating canon, whereas in fanfic, you're just playing with it, so you have more freedom to experiment. You're not committed to any one relationship, dynamic, sexual preference, first-time story, etc etc etc.

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

I wrote a similar essay when I first started writing fan fiction, with a lot of the same points! It's so hard to cover everything that it could be, even when we try to figure out all the different mentalities that might bring people to slash.

One thing to take into account is that a lot of the people writing slash are not straight. There is a large group of women who identify as lesbian or bi, and quite a few in relationships with other women, who write m/m slash. There are also gay men writing and reading, and at least a few trans people who are out about it.

I think it's somewhat interesting that straight women like two cocks porn, but in some ways more unexpected that so many women in f/f relationships do.

It might be because the canonical literature from which we are working doesn't have such brilliant or attractive female characters. Or it could just be the ineffable, inexplicable human brain, enjoying erotic stimulation from things we don't like in real life.

I think the model of a lot of intersecting reasons works well.

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

I wrote a similar essay when I first started writing fan fiction, with a lot of the same points! It's so hard to cover everything that it could be, even when we try to figure out all the different mentalities that might bring people to slash.

I think everyone does. It's sad, because I am not even that new to fandom anymore.

I find it difficult to really buy the "our canon doesn't have good female characters" argument, if only because of this conversation I once had with my slash partner-in-crime:

Z: You know what's weird? I like 'Firefly,' but I'm not that interested in reading fic for it.
Y: Yeah, there's some slash, but I don't really have a favorite pairing.
Z: I think there's just too many strong interesting women.
Y: Yeah, damn them!
[Z and Y go back to reading SGA fanfic.]

[snow-blossoms.livejournal.com]

I recently told my fiance that I read gay fan fiction (and, what's even worse, RPS) and his reaction went sort of like this: "sputter, sputter, but why?" I didn't have a good reason for him...other than, you know, blushing and giggling into a pillow (mature, y/n?) Needless to say, it's been on my mind a lot lately. I hope you don't mind if I respond / comment on some of these points.

The first: Het romance has an uncomfortable implied power imbalance (and/or gender roles). Two people of the same sex are equals. Well, it sounds good in theory, but I honestly think most writers can't help but re-establish a power imbalance. Typically, one of the males in slash becomes effeminate, occasionally through no reason other than the fact that he always bottom, and this, alone is enough to cast him in the weaker, woman role, if you will. However, many writers (though maybe not intentionally?) tend to continue subverting their male bottoms by attributing un-manly characteristics to them, both in and out of bed. Take for instance Remus, poor pathetic lonely desperate werewolf (who nearly always bottoms, unless it's his "time of the month") or poor needy emo Sam (unless he's possessed by a demon, of course). This characters, despite their genitalia, are still casted in the position of the women in many fics.

The second (and I hope this doesn't become too personal for you): Women who have less than stellar associations with RL sex might prefer to get their rocks off by reading about sex in which they do not imagine themselves in the place of the participants. You mention that most of the women on your flist are happily married and therefore, this theory does not quite hold. However, happily married is not the same thing as sexually satisfied. I am very happily engaged and plan to join the ranks of happily married in 6 months time...I've been in a sexually active, monogamous relationship for 5 years now...and I've never had an orgasm. And there are a lot of other women like me, who for physical, mental or emotional reasons have a very difficult time ever climaxing. When I read het porn, it just don't feel real to me. It's nothing I've ever experienced and I just can't get into it without remembering that little fact. So it's not a point to be discounted too soon, I guess.

Another one I wanted to mention...I think our society more readily accepts the mechanics of male sex than female. It's ok for guys to talk about orgasms, to talk about their penises (penii?), but not yet ok for women to talk openly about their vaginas and g-spots.

But really, after this impossibly long comment, I'd also like to mention that I'm horrendously superficial and I'm just in it for "but they're so pretty together" reasons. :)

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

You may be right, in some fandoms, about half of a pairing generally getting cast in the subordinate role. In the particular pairings/writers/fics that I read, it's pretty much equal, with characters having complex, not-easily-defined power relations or at least switching off in terms of dominance/role/position from one story to another (or better yet, within one story). Arguably, my experience is skewed by what I like and seek out.

Whether a character is made to look effeminate certainly depends on the fandom--that is to say, whether it fits with his characterization in canon. If it does not, I would argue that it is a poorly written fic.

My understanding from reading het or f/f is that there is a standard erotica-writer's vocabulary for discussing female sexuality just as there is for male. I think they are both somewhat idealized. In fiction, as a rule, all women are orgasmic, men don't ejaculate prematurely, and everyone rocks everyone's world. But would it be a satisfying story otherwise? Narrative structure loves an orgasm.

[forked.livejournal.com]

Whee- in from metafandom. I too think there are different reasons for different folks and no 'one size fits all' approach will do.

I'm not a slash fan per se- tend to like gen and prefer lots of plot in the fanfic I read. But I read way more slash than anything else. I've found that for me? I tend to be character centric first, and the pairing flows from that. I always go for a character who is in some way fucked up- and the pairing(s) I like will depend on who has the right dynamic with my fav. Sometimes- most of the times- that ends up with me preferring a slash pairing. Sometimes het.

Blake's 7? Avon is my OTC. And dude- he and Blake have 'the dynamic'.
SV? Lex. Who is all about Clark. Or possibly Lionel. Either way is good.
Witchblade? Ian is so f'd up it hurts- and he hurts best w/Sara or Irons.
Buffy? Spike. Who is all about Buffy.

I mean- I'm pretty consistent in what draws me in. But what draws me isn't het or slash centric- it's the character and the dynamic I want to see played out.

[lavenderfrost.livejournal.com]

I've pretty much given up on trying to figure out why I like slash. I just like it, man. Just like I like het and femmeslash. ^^;; If that's not reason enough, oh well.

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's pretty much where I am. I just figured I'd gather some of the arguments and see if I could make sense of them.

[evila-elf.livejournal.com]

I have been thinking about this on and off for quite awhile now. I don't think I have ever really read too much het fanfiction...My first online fandom was X-files and I prefered the adventures with an occassional romance. Then I stumbled into the slash section and was instantly hooked.

I think it is different things for different people for why they like slash. I have no interest in the female body. So picturing two guys is very much a plus :) And in TV shows, or at least the ones I watch, I really am not too fond of any of the females. Not enough to read any plain fanfiction with them, let alone a romance.

Just my 2 cents :)

[khukuri.livejournal.com]

Here from metafandom!

Problem: Many slash pairings have an implied power imbalance, and it's not like slash writers as a whole sweep that under the rug. If this were the main reason to like slash, we couldn't enjoy a story where Blair gets dominated by Jim and/or cries his little eyes out, is all I'm saying.

I think for this one, it's not that there's a more even balance of power- a quick look at Japanese-based fandoms blows that one out of the water- but that the uneven balance doesn't involve a woman copping all the "weak" traits/having none of the power.

Um, I'm not too good at explaining things well, so bear with me... It's not too much of a stretch to assume that most female writers are uncomfortable with the traditional stereotypes ascribed to female characters in books/media, but maybe not to the stereotypes themselves. Plenty of writers seem to want to explore those traits and tropes without portraying women as weak. So applying those traits to a male character instead is a way to play around with them without having to write weak women- and it also hits several other points as well, in that that feels new, subversive, gives an added level of vulnerability to male characters, etc.

[zelempa.livejournal.com]

It's not too much of a stretch to assume that most female writers are uncomfortable with the traditional stereotypes ascribed to female characters in books/media, but maybe not to the stereotypes themselves.

Point! That makes a lot of sense.

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

via metafandom

Perhaps the answer is more social. (I see all the reasons laid out above as factually accurate summation of what's wrong / interesting in the source text, but as a starting point for writing het)

What determines what you write is more probably related to who you met when you first joined fandom, the first good fic you were exposed to, and the people who supported your initial writing. If fandom is a gift economy, then exchages between you and others could cement your interests in particular areas.


When I joined, I wrote het almost exclusively, though there was a slash subpairing in my first fic. I've written het for three years, and now, as I've got more slashers on my flist, I've written bits and pieces to please them, until now I am writing my first long slash piece (with het in the background, because I'm not going to erase my female characters).

[ex_mrs260625]

You missed, "If this were a man and a woman, they would totally be doing it by now." :0) That's why I write slash for my pairing. (That, and I'm gay. I am, therefore, uninterested in the sexual lives of female characters.)

[lonespark.livejournal.com]

Uh...well, at least one of your pairings is not really un-canon. And, yeah, if they were straight they would do it ALL THE TIME.

[trobadora]

You're so right - none of these reasons resonate with me in the slightest. *sighs*

Here via metafandom

[lilka.livejournal.com]

Contentious as I know it is, I believe in something like a 'slash aesthetic'. I think it's something about the way slash is written, rather than the content, that makes it appeal to me. And my main reason for thinking this is that nearly all the het I like is written by people who are primarily slashers - Shallot, say, or Te. The only Snape/Hermione story I ever liked was described by its author as 'honourary slash'. So yeah. Just something else to throw into the melting pot.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

Enjoyed reading your list of reasons and pretty much agree with your 'but, wait...' ripostes as well.

I don't know what I like about slash, or why I, almost exclusively, write it these days. I began as a het writer (Buffy/Spike) and then stumbled over a Spike/Xander fic and once I'd cooled off enough to think coherently realized I was in a whole new world.

It turns me on. It interests me. I've tried to work out why, but I can't.

I don't know why it's so important to us that we work out why, but it must be because it comes up so often :-)

[whetherwoman.livejournal.com]

Just stumbled across this from metafandom and just wanted to throw in my two cents.

For me, it's all about the power dynamic. I started out in fandom reading Buffy/Spike, but liked Spike/Angel much better and haven't come out of slash yet.

I'm not entirely sure how to describe what I look for in a power relationship. It's not an imbalance or a struggle, it's interestingness. Unpredictability. Most het pairings don't do it for me because the assumption is that the woman will be the catcher and the man will be the pitcher, sexually and emotionally. Even if it's switched up there's still this thing where the ground level is always that the man will have more power than the woman. I like Buffy/Spike because canonically she has waaay more power than him, so every time he tries for a little bit of power it's unpredictable whether he'll get it. I haven't read much X-Files, but I like onscreen Mulder/Scully for the same reason--I'm honestly never sure which one of them will be right this time.

With slash relationships, it's always unpredictable. Maybe not within a given story, but within a fandom. Sometimes John's dom and sometimes Rodney is. Sometimes one of them performs the daring rescue and sometimes the other. Sometimes one of them pines, sometimes the other--you get the picture. I never know who's head is going to end up on who's chest.

Of course, this doesn't explain why I don't read femslash. Maybe I assume men have power to give up and women don't? I also don't know why I tend to enjoy het pairings on screen but not in fic.

This is a seriously awesome post, by the way. Both thinky and hilarious.

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